How to make any major religions claims of evidence obsolete

[Butterfly Dreams CLC]

..with one argument..

I have really found that this leads to the conclusion that any claim of evidence from a religious theist does not matter, specifically a god like the Abrahamic god, in terms of believing it. I think everyone should always be open to evidence, and I don't think I have to explain why to this crowd, but this argument shows that there wouldn't be a way to rationally believe a being that is anything like the Abrahamic god is described as, even if it existed. I've de-converted many theists with this argument over the years; Christians and Muslims. This is what I usually phrase it as to Christians, but replace the Christian parts with Muslim parts and the argument is just as effective to Muslims.

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Even going with the Christian perspective hypothetically, how do we know this is not just a very powerful being, beyond our understanding, who is trying to do something evil and is tricking us into thinking its a good god by giving us illusions that it is a good god, or a god at all, from it's tremendous power that would go beyond our ability to understand it? A very powerful being, who is beyond our understanding, would be very much capable of doing that. So asking us to believe in it and worship this biblical god when its not proving this to us doesn't make any sense. It is irrational for it to demand that we believe and worship it when we don't have a way of knowing this, or if it is telling the truth about itself. This God supposedly is transcendent and is seemingly all powerful from the human’s perspective at least.

In the bible it’s described to be omnipotent: (Matthew 19:26 - Matthew 28:18 - Luke 1:37 - 1 John 3:20 - Isaiah 14:24-27 - Revelation 19:6 - Isaiah 46:10 - Mark 10:27 - Luke 18:27 - Job 42:1-2 - Isaiah 55:11 - 1 Kings 8:27)

When something goes beyond the human minds understanding we can't know its full nature, thus we can't know its real place in the universe and its relation with it, thus we can't know if what its doing is right or if what someone describes about it is correct and so its not possible for us to truthfully believe it is what it says it is, or worship it.

In this case there would be no way to verify it's claims, because any evidence it would show us has the possibility of being just an elaborate and powerful illusion manifested from it's abilities that go beyond our understanding. This is the situation humans would be confronted with when we come across a very powerful being which is beyond our ability to understand at the moment.

I say at the moment because I don't like to put a limit on human discovery; what we can accomplish in the future, but this is a claimed god that is asking people in modern times, and people before our time to believe, who I'm very sure didn't have those kinds of capabilities. Otherwise people around thousands of years ago could have given us evidence of what makes up an omnipotent being, it's general nature, how they manifest into existence, and so forth, so we can know everything about it to verify what it tells us. This needs to be evidence, not claims and hearsay. This god would also have given the proof to every believer, before they were believers so they could rationally become believers. I'm not seeing this evidence being given out to unbelievers, being an unbeliever who has studied religion for a long time. If this god has not shown you that evidence, and the other things needed to confirm it's claims, then it is irrational to ask you to believe.

This would need to be evidence that can’t be an elaborate illusion from a being seemingly omnipotent to humans. I can’t see how that kind of evidence would be possible......because if the being is omnipotent like the biblical god claims it is, that means anything could be an illusion. Omnipotence means infinite in power. So there is no way around it, either the god doesn’t exist, and this is a human error from someone living in those times, or a being with an incredible amount of intelligence that goes beyond the human understanding is giving us a proposition that isn’t possible for humans to rationally or sanely fulfill. If people believed in things without evidence, or logic like the proposed god is asking us people could in the same way believe in leprechauns, invisible purple unicorn hippos, deadly cults, etc. because those things have no evidence, or logic either. Which means the supposed god is opening it’s own people up to be dangerously manipulated. The first option I gave is extremely more probable.

Further, punishing us because we don't believe would be like punishing a disabled person wheel chair because they can't run a marathon, or punishing a dog because it doesn't know rocket science. Even closer to the point, the Christian God would be creating a disabled person and then punishing them for being disabled.

Humans do not know everything, when someone doesn't know something the possibilities are infinite on what it could be because the possibilities include things that we haven't thought of, or things that we are not capable of thinking of, things we can't comprehend.

I'm not saying that there definitely is something with an intelligence far beyond ours giving us illusions for reasons that only it can know, just that its in the realm of possibilities because there is so much about everything that we do not know. We can't assume anything that we don't know is true because then people would end up believing anything at the mercy of the human imagination. That's not how someone finds the truth, but at the same time the possibilities are infinite when it comes to things we don't know, including that. Even a persons alleged experience with the Holy Spirit is very much capable of being an illusion from something beyond our understanding.

..or anything else because we are talking about anything we can't or haven't thought of.

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I want to let as many other atheists to know this as much as possible because this is very helpful in getting to the point, and especially when they try to give you hundreds of false evidence claims and say "If you can't debunk all these that must be because my god is real." *lol* I've been there.

Also this really is just one argument *lol* even though it's very long. I just explained it in detail. It is basically how it is irrational to believe what something beyond our understanding would try to convey to us.

~*Best Wishes*~
Christie

[McQ]

Welcome to the forum, Christie. Wow. Quite a first post. Glad you're not shy! You'll find this to be an eclectic bunch of folks, and a really good place to bounce ideas around. Be prepared to have ideas challenged, too.

Have fun.

[PoopShoot]

I have really found that this leads to the conclusion that any claim of evidence from a religious theist does not matter, specifically a god like the Abrahamic god, in terms of believing it.

Hence their reliance on faith.

I've de-converted many theists with this argument over the years; Christians and Muslims.

I don't understand why this is important.

I read it and it's really no different than any number of other arguments that try to get address the division between faith and evidence.  In the end, it's only meaningful to people who value evidence.

[Butterfly Dreams CLC]

Welcome to the forum, Christie. Wow. Quite a first post. Glad you're not shy! You'll find this to be an eclectic bunch of folks, and a really good place to bounce ideas around. Be prepared to have ideas challenged, too.

Hi there! Thanks for the nice welcome! This looks like a really amazing website!

I have really found that this leads to the conclusion that any claim of evidence from a religious theist does not matter, specifically a god like the Abrahamic god, in terms of believing it.

Hence their reliance on faith.

I've de-converted many theists with this argument over the years; Christians and Muslims.

I don't understand why this is important.

I read it and it's really no different than any number of other arguments that try to get address the division between faith and evidence.  In the end, it's only meaningful to people who value evidence.

I agree, this is only meaningful to people who value evidence. That' why I said "claims of evidence" in the title. It's also easy for me to debunk the people who say "just have faith" but that's a whole other argument.

I also know this maybe will not be effective to people who will just make up any irrational excuse to keep their belief. It is difficult to think of any argument that will effect people like that, but I know it's possible because I've done that before. It depends on what degree they are willing to stay in denial.

I was a Christian for 20 years. It wasn't really a one point that suddenly made me an Atheist. It was after years of careful study of religion and their arguments for their beliefs. I was planning on becoming a biblical scholar. I thought it would be interesting to see the Christian defenses for why they think its true and the defense for why people think it isn't true. The Christian arguments didn't hold any water and the Atheist arguments made a lot of sense. After that I looked at other religions and the non-believer arguments always made more sense. So I consider me an Atheist on every religion that I have studied so far.

[pinkocommie]

Welcome to the forum!  If you feel like doing an introduction, there is a section for that and it gives everyone a chance to say hi and get to know one another a little.    

As for claiming responsibility for the de-conversion of others, I'm not too comfortable with that and when I hear someone else talk about multiple people they've de-converted I automatically feel suspicious of the claim.  While this is a great argument, it doesn't strike me as something that would make someone who is in any way devoutly religious give up religion since the process of de-conversion seems to very rarely happen after being exposed to a single argument.

[PoopShoot]

I was a Christian for 20 years.

Me too.  What denomination were you?

It wasn't really a one point that suddenly made me an Atheist. It was after years of careful study of religion and their arguments for their beliefs. I was planning on becoming a biblical scholar. I thought it would be interesting to see the Christian defenses for why they think its true and the defense for why people think it isn't true. The Christian arguments didn't hold any water and the Atheist arguments made a lot of sense. After that I looked at other religions and the non-believer arguments always made more sense. So I consider me an Atheist on every religion that I have studied so far.

That's how it was for me.  I came to the conclusion after studying my own church's beliefs that their version of god was a tyrannical, hateful being.  Since the claims were that he's a loving, caring individual, I knew that the beliefs were a lie.

[Butterfly Dreams CLC]

Welcome to the forum!  If you feel like doing an introduction, there is a section for that and it gives everyone a chance to say hi and get to know one another a little.    

As for claiming responsibility for the de-conversion of others, I'm not too comfortable with that and when I hear someone else talk about multiple people they've de-converted I automatically feel suspicious of the claim.  While this is a great argument, it doesn't strike me as something that would make someone who is in any way devoutly religious give up religion since the process of de-conversion seems to very rarely happen after being exposed to a single argument.

I think it's more complicated than that, and it depends on the individual, and I don't buy what some atheists that say that most Christians and Muslims are beyond being able to be de-converted, so it's hopeless to try. I was a Christian for 20 years and I was de-converted by looking at arguments on the internet and thinking about them. There are a considerable amount of Christians out there who are perfectly rational people, and demonstrably function well logically in society. They were just brought up since childhood to withhold their rational thinking from this one subject. They can be people who care about the truth, but they were just brought up to think this is true.

Religious institutions give out all sorts of emotional crutches since childhood which keeps them from thinking logically about this subject. Like telling children they have to believe without evidence, or they will suffer for eternity. In other words "just have faith." That is a frightening thought, and very influential to a child. They also grow up thinking Mom and Dad think this is true so it must be true. They also tell them without religion there is no morals or purpose in life, or "Grammy past away but don't worry she is in Heaven now, along with Snuggles your dead dog." They will give all sorts of things to scare them away from thinking logically about this. However since they can still be people who care about the truth, I think they are capable of being influenced by logic that truthfully shows their religion isn't sufficient for belief. Of coarse they will try to wiggle out of an argument that shows them that the belief can't be true by coming up with all sorts of irrational excuses, but if they are real rational people they will see the truth after given time to think about it and having their irrational excuses challenged. That rational mind that they use for everything else will eventually seep in, showing them the truth. This is in no way a generalizing of all religious institutions because they believe different things, and it is complicated, but I think this does describe a very good portion of Christians, and in a sort of similar way Muslims.

I mean really, when I de-converted it was an argument I debated with the Atheist, and a month later after thinking of any way I can wiggle around the argument I was like "That's it, I can't believe in this stuff anymore."

I also think another biggie for people being religious is they simply haven't studied all of their religion. They mostly just hear about it from their preacher, which gives them both a biased and uneducated view of what they are following. Have you heard about the recent study that showed very little people could answer basic questions about their religion and atheists actually scored the highest?

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1745/religi ... re-highest

I don't mean every theist is capable of being de-converted. There are many people who will just give irrational excuse after irrational excuse, however I wouldn't bet that a considerable population of them can't be de-converted. I also don't believe in being as aggressive about it as Mormons do who go door to door, or forcing anything on anyone. When someone has the truth on their side they don't need force, just the reasons that it is true. However I think if we are ever going to find the truth people need their views to be out in the open where people who want to can think about them. All I do is debate with people online who say they'd like to. I don't agree with atheists who say to give up and that its hopeless, and let's just let religion take over everything because we can't stop it. I think it is important for our view to be heard. Also many theists I've debated with have de-converted. Every time I've done it, it was like months later after I debated with them that they said they de-converted. They usually don't tell you instantly, or tell you at all. Many times I just never hear from them again, so that's a certain amount I don't know if they de-converted or not. The reason it usually takes so long is that it's a lot to take in that your whole world view suddenly changes.

Me too. What denomination were you?

I was raised in an Assembly of God church, but I was actually non-denominational and just slowly came up with my own beliefs the more and more I studied it.

That's how it was for me. I came to the conclusion after studying my own church's beliefs that their version of god was a tyrannical, hateful being. Since the claims were that he's a loving, caring individual, I knew that the beliefs were a lie.

Yeah the claim "God will punish you for eternity, just for not believing" had the same effect on me hehe. That's the worst possible thing something could do to someone, and this god does it simply for not believing in him? I don't know how someone can consider that moral.

[Cite134]

There are enough holes in the bowl of Christian theism to make pasta.  

[Thumpalumpacus]

Hi there.  

My own deconversion too took some time, about two years.  

I don't care to deconvert others; they have their own path to walk, and I'm cool with that so long as they don't try to leash and drag me.  I extend the same courtesy in return.

Look forward to more of your posts.

[Butterfly Dreams CLC]

There are enough holes in the bowl of Christian theism to make pasta.

Hi there.  

My own deconversion too took some time, about two years.  

I don't care to deconvert others; they have their own path to walk, and I'm cool with that so long as they don't try to leash and drag me.  I extend the same courtesy in return.

Look forward to more of your posts.

Hi, thank you! I'm glad you like my posts. I agree with that and when I meet a Christian I don't suddenly try to de-convert them. I'd only debate if they wanted to, but I like to encourage people to debate. I think it's good to get to the reasons why we believe what we believe, and have them challenged, and to see a different perspective. This helps people come to a truth.

I think it is better for people to recognize what is true first and then find the hope in that truth. Rather than making up a false truth to hide from the world. I think it is mostly blind faith that comes with the beliefs in gods or religions that I object to the most, rather than people looking for the truth themselves.

I don't believe in forcing it on people, just showing people the reasons for the non-religious viewpoint.

It is kind of like an ostrich bird sticking their heads in the sand when a predator comes around. I know it is a myth that ostriches stick their heads in the sand, and it is a good thing that it is a myth because if they did, they would probably be extinct by now. If they just stick their heads in the sand to pretend the predators are not there, they are sitting ducks for the predators to just come up and snatch them.

I see much similarity in someone just pretending they have an invisible magical friend that will take away the problems in the world.

Things get even more problematic when someone says this invisible magical being is the moral authority  of everything and he wrote his laws down in this really old book. That this being is beyond our understanding so who are we to question the laws? If you don't believe you go to a land of eternal torture, but if you do you go to a land of eternal happiness. Then they say this God wants you to just believe in it without any evidence, in other words, to just have faith. It opens up the possibility for people to blindly follow any irrational interpretation someone can get out of that book. Thus people making unjust laws, or decisions that can get them or others into trouble, and innocent people being persecuted. People don't think of the reasons of the laws, just that its commands of God, thus not being prepared on what to do in random situations.

Blind faith in a book that says it contains all morals open a way for someones morals to be warped even if they were being good beforehand. Thats something anyone can use to manipulate the public in doing what ever they want. All it takes is to interpret the book in a bad way and it has been done before.

It is not good when we sacrifice the indispensable tool of reason on the altar of superstition, then putting a label of moral authority on it.

The people who flew the plane into the twin towers had a lot of faith. They had more faith than I have ever seen any Christian have because they were willing to give their lives for it and many others along with them. So do we really want more of that? Since there is nothing to verifiably show something is true like evidence does, it leads people blindly down a road of either good or evil. With no way to verifiably know which way you are going to end up. It is much better to go down a road with sight with the intention to do good.

Also I think many of the religions are made in a way that motivates people to want to push their beliefs on others. For example, having an all powerful God whose morality is beyond human understanding and who is above all laws, including earthly laws. Also having the belief that non-believers will suffer for eternity and believers will be in happy land for eternity.

The major religions are not this innocent belief that stays out of people's way and says "If you don't believe that is okay." It threatens unsuspecting and uninformed people with eternal torment if they do not believe.

Another problem is the average feel good Johnny in the pew person who is decent, kind and loving and a good person to their family and generally a good person to everyone. They put so much into helping people and yet their mind has been polluted. They are unable to take credit for all their hard work and accomplishments, they are unable to interact on an interpersonal level with the people around them to build a community in this cooperative society where that is absolutely essential because they have this mentality that they are worthless without God. With claims like "Without God I couldn't breathe and if I could I'd be immoral" They think without God they are evil and couldn't do any of the good things they do everyday with their friends and family. Thats horrible. People go through their lives without knowing how special they are. They are the ones doing all these wonderful things and yet they are totally oblivious to it. I see this all the time.

[PoopShoot]

I was raised in an Assembly of God church, but I was actually non-denominational and just slowly came up with my own beliefs the more and more I studied it.

Heh.  Me too.  I also went to school there, so I was a 6 day a week fella.

[Butterfly Dreams CLC]

That's a coinkidink! Though I went just on Sundays and sometimes Wednesdays, but my parents made me read the Bible every night. It's true that the way to make an Atheist is to make them study the Bible. My parents kind of did that unintentionally. *lol*

[PoopShoot]

That's a coinkidink! Though I went just on Sundays and sometimes Wednesdays, but my parents made me read the Bible every night. It's true that the way to make an Atheist is to make them study the Bible. My parents kind of did that unintentionally. *lol*

Yeah.  We had an additional class for the sole purpose of studying the bible.  The teacher had a theology degree and read Ancient Greek.  Pic related, it's where I was imprisoned for my entire childhood.

[Butterfly Dreams CLC]

Ah yes it's definitely a different church than I went to, just checking. *lol* I'm glad your free now. Atheists are usually surprised when I tell them I had a good time in my church, but it is only the social aspect of it that I still cherish even though I disagree with the rest. I disagree very much with indoctrinating children. I can't help but think of the amount of people that wouldn't be religious if it were not for the indoctrination before the age at which they were able to reason. I consider that a form of brain washing. When they can reason they are already incredibly committed to it to the point that they think if they think a thought of unbelief they are evil, of the devil and in danger of eternally suffering. That can be very traumatic that can be to a child. Studies have shown that where someone is brought up greatly determines their religion. This is from religious indoctrination in peoples up bringing. If you grew up in the US you will most likely be a Christian but if you grew up in the middle east you will most likely be a Muslim. There is a minority of deviants in every case though of coarse.

[PoopShoot]

Atheists are usually surprised when I tell them I had a good time in my church, but it is only the social aspect of it that I still cherish even though I disagree with the rest.

I'm not surprised, though I don't share your feelings on the matter.  I personally have some issues that I've managed to work around that may be related to my experiences there.  Of course, I was there 6 days a week and too poor to afford tuition, but got to go because my mom was a teacher there, so there's a few dynamics beyond simply the religious aspects in play.